Episode #8 - Supplementation, Disease Prevention, & BHRT

In this episode, Jeff & Lyn Hogrefe talk about The Happy Hormone Cottage's supplementation strategies, disease prevention, & BHRT. 

Topics covered:
~ The value of BHRT to protect against heart disease, osteoporosis, & Alzheimer's
~ The value of low dose testosterone therapy for women
~ Estrogen & men
~ Vitamins D & K
~ DIM supplementation
~ Estrogen metabolism
~ DHEA
~ Vitamin B12
~ Omega 3's
~ HHC Adrenal Calm & Adrenal Boost
~ Thyroid, Cortisol, & Insulin
~ Supplements for insulin resistance
~ DUTCH Testing

***Although our HHC has a telemedicine license to easily service clients in Ohio and Florida, we can also work with clients who live out of state as long as they come and visit us in person annually. Our goal in publishing this podcast nationally is for the educational value contained within. Education is key!***

Transcript

Pam: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Happy Hormone Cottage Podcast at the Happy Hormone Cottage. We are all about helping women and men learn more about the aging process, the changes we experience as we grow older and hopefully wiser. And we are also a one-stop shop for bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. We have been talking extensively about how hormone replacement therapy can help us feel normal again.

And improve our quality of life. My name is Pam Gross, and today we are going to focus our conversation on how BHRT can help prevent certain diseases and what supplements work well with hormone replacement therapy. We are joined today by Lyn Hogrefe, who is known as the warrior of women's wellness.

Lyn is the founder and the executive director of Happy Hormone Cottage. Also Jeff Hogrefe, who is a compounding pharmacist and advanced fellowship in [00:01:00] functional medicine. He is also the owner of the Integrative Hormone Center. Welcome Lyn and welcome Jeff. Hey, thanks. Good. 

Lyn:  Glad to be here. 

Pam: Lyn, we've talked a lot about the importance of estrogen.

Mm hmm. in a woman's body and testosterone in men and how they both get depleted as we age. That's why bio identical hormone replacement therapy is such an important tool because it offers a natural way to get our hormones balanced. And when we balance our hormones, there are also other benefits related to chronic disease.

Right. Yes. Yeah. Jeff, as the compounding pharmacist, can you tell us a little bit more about the importance of estrogen and testosterone and what happens when our body doesn't produce it naturally. 

Jeff: Okay, sure. The, um, I think start with testosterone, especially for women. I think the value of testosterone for women is more about osteoporosis than anything else.

I think testosterone is [00:02:00] probably the single greatest thing you can use to keep you from getting osteoporosis. It stimulates your bone growth, and it also stimulates you to produce more cells that produce for bones. You know, we use a lot of medications to prevent osteoporosis, but I think If you use testosterone, you get a much better result, in my 

Pam: opinion.

Kind of interesting because I think most of the time when you mention testosterone, you think of immediately men. You don't really think about women don't really think about that. We may be deficient 

Lyn: in that way. It's when we 

Pam: really need as well Yeah, but that makes sense because we're gonna talk a little bit more about chronic diseases that can be prevented with this and Jeff I'm glad that you brought up the fact of the testosterone in women Because one of the chronic diseases, there's basically three that affect women.

I mean, there's more, but the big three are, I think they're what? Heart disease, 

Lyn: Alzheimer's and osteoporosis. 

Pam: Yes. And so [00:03:00] you just mentioned testosterone and the importance to bones. So I'm sorry I interrupted you. 

Jeff: No, that's perfect. No, I think that's one of the reasons why we use very low dose of testosterone as part of we do see the reversal.

Of osteopenia and osteoporosis by using low dose testosterone. It makes sense. Guys don't typically have osteoporosis. Unlike women do because guys have a much greater testosterone amount than women do. The other thing about testosterone, I think it's very good for your brain. I think it helps you make good decisions.

I mean, I think it gives you passion for life as well. So it's sort of the hormone of desire, passion, motivation in my mind. Called the dopamine effect, but it gives you just a real strong desire to do stuff if it's done, right? Estrogen for me when I look at estrogen my argument for estrogen in most women is that it's Protective for heart disease [00:04:00] heart disease is not really a disease of the heart.

It's a disease of the arteries And so what happens is your arteries as you age? They calcify or get hardened, and that causes elevations in blood pressure, and when you mess up the arteries around the heart, that leads to heart attack, right? You mess up the arteries around the brain, that leads to a stroke.

So you have to think about heart disease more of a disease of the arteries. Estrogen, I'll go, I'll back up a second. When we talked about that calcification of the arteries, it's really an inflammatory Condition going on all the time. Estrogen at the arteries is very protective, so you don't get a lot of inflammation.

And that's why women tend to have less cardiovascular events than men. Okay, now, once a woman reaches menopause, and she no longer has that protective effect of estrogen, then her risk of heart disease is the same as guys at that point. I think that's probably the [00:05:00] major benefit because I think when you weigh heart disease versus like the risk of breast cancer, which is always the concern when we give estrogen, heart disease is much greater, affects much more women and they have thyroid More chance for, um, death from cardiovascular disease than, than just cancer.

Pam: Yeah, I remember reading something that said, as we age, and, and they were talking about women in their late 50s, which I am, heart disease affects women, I think it was one in three. And I was kind of surprised by that because if you think about it and when you look at society and all the things that you read, the emphasis really is on men and heart attacks and things like that, and you don't really think about that so much as a woman issue.

And I think that's why I like the fact that we're talking about these chronic diseases, because, as we said, there were there were three. This is something that is super important [00:06:00] and that. Is a benefit from hormone therapy. And I think a lot of people don't put those pieces together and understand how they all work.

Did we miss anything in regards to the chronic disease? We touched on the big three, but I, and I know for men, prostate obviously is, is way up there as well. Now let me ask you one last question on the estrogen thing. This is a completely ignorant question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do men have estrogen?

Do they also, do they also, does it deplete in their bodies? Because we obviously have estrogen and testosterone, the testosterone, uh, obviously is something that we lose. Right. So do men also have estrogen and do they lose that and what effect does that have? Yeah. That's a great question. 

Jeff: Yeah. No, this is, this is biochemistry at its best.

So men don't make estrogen, they convert testosterone to estrogen. Okay, so testosterone is a precursor, so the [00:07:00] body will convert testosterone to estrogen. As we get older, this process of conversion of testosterone to estrogen happens in our fat cells. Okay, so as we get older and we get a little heavier, we have more fat cells, we tend to see guys with higher estrogen levels, and we lose a great Uh, what I would say a ratio between your testosterone level and your estrogen level.

That's my biggest thing is that guys aren't low on estrogen, they're too high on estrogen. And that will shut down a guy's ability to make his own testosterone. And then the other thing is that guys tend to store estrogen a little bit easier. They lose functionality of the liver as we get older. And so the liver is the main organ of clearing out estrogen.

So when we're looking at the guys, we're always measuring their estrogen load or the amount of estradiol and estrone, the two major estrogens in the body to make sure they're not 

Pam: elevated. Well, the other thing I want to talk about that goes along with this [00:08:00] same conversation has to do with supplements.

Everything that I've read, it says that If you are on hormone therapy, it's also recommended that you should take some certain supplements. Let's talk more about the kinds of supplements that you should be taking or that you should look into them. I can start with Lyn or Jeff, either one, you guys can both chime in.

What kind of supplements are we talking about? And then why do we need them? I think, 

Lyn: and I think one important fact. point to make is that I always believe in a strategy and so does Jeff. You know, you don't want to go to Walgreen or Kroger and just start grabbing what you've heard might be good for you and spend a lot of money on if you don't know if it's working for you or if you even need it.

So we always like to base our recommendations on a strategy from either diagnostic testing or mainly diagnostic testing. But I know the big one that I really appreciate is vitamin D and vitamin K. And I think there's a myth that, oh, if I'm in the sunshine, like let's say in Florida, because God knows we don't have a whole lot of it in Ohio sometimes of the year, [00:09:00] that I won't need vitamin D.

And that really is kind of a myth. So let Jeff go ahead and take that away with the importance of vitamin D, vitamin K, and then how effective the sun is as we get 

Pam: older, right? Yeah. 

Jeff: So vitamin D is probably one of the most important supplements to take. We measure vitamin D levels a lot when we're doing thyroid panel because vitamin D is so critical for thyroid function.

And so our goal, and this is coming from a lot of smart people, not me, that the vitamin D goal is around 60 to 80. And if you don't take vitamin D classically, you're around 20. So our goal is to get people up in the 60 to 80 range. And so our dosing is appropriate for that. So after testing thousands and thousands of people, we kind of know the dosing to get people to that level.

And the other thing we started doing is making sure we get vitamin K with vitamin D, because there's an interaction with calcium, vitamin D and vitamin K that we care about. [00:10:00] And if vitamin K is not there, then we're concerned about calcium leaching out of the bones and getting into the arteries as well.

Yeah, that's kind of a big supplement that we recommend right off the bat for people to be taking plenty of vitamin D, K in combination. 

Pam: So is vitamin K. Is that tied to calcium? Is that what you said? Yeah. Okay. I'm also told too that there was there was a supplement called it has the initials D. I. M. Um, yeah.

Yeah. And it's it. I can't really pronounce it. So I'm going to murder it. It's de an do lo me thane. Is that, do you know? De an do lo me thane. There, see, now you can say it and I can't. 

Lyn: Nailed it. Rolls off his tongue. 

Pam: All right, well, thank God you're the pharmacist. Because as I was, because I had never heard of it.

Yeah. And so I looked it up and it said that you find it in broccoli. [00:11:00] You find it in kale, and you find it in cabbage. Yeah, 

Lyn: absolutely. It's a really important supplement. Jeff, go ahead and talk about that, since you were the 

Pam: compounding 

Jeff: pharmacist. So we were talking specific estrogen therapy. When we talk about estrogen in breast cancer, and I don't know if we talked about this, it's not really about estrogen.

It's how the body metabolizes estrogen out, right? And so what we're looking really hard is what the metabolite, we call the 4 hydroxy estrone, which is part of the body's ability to start removing estrogen out of the body. This guy is what's tied to breast cancer and all the things related to the bad things about estrogen.

We care about that. So when we're giving estrogen or when we're looking at estrogen levels, we're very particular about how you are metabolizing estrogen. So diendylmethane or DEM is one of those things that will help your liver start moving estrogen down the two hydroxy pathway. And away from the 4 hydroxy pathway, because that's what we want, because [00:12:00] that's how we get rid of estrogen.

Certain things will up regulate, and we'll start seeing elevations in the 4 hydroxy estrone. This is a poor diet, trans fats, carbohydrates, sugars. We start seeing an up regulation with people post COVID, where they're starting to make the wrong estrogen. And that makes sense, because how many times are we told to not eat trans fats and sugars and stuff like that?

Because of the risk of cancer. And to me, that's sort of the link. between our diet and our risk of breast 

Lyn: cancer. We have a lot of clients that are actually using the supplement DIMM. I think, do I use it, Jeff? Is that in one of my supplements? Yeah, to methylate it out. I know one important point about the Dutch testing that we use, the dried urine testing for comprehensive hormones, is that it actually breaks down The estrogen pathways and the three different pathways, the 4 the 16, I think, and identifies if you are a high risk for this methylation piece, we can offer you the DIM or suggest you take the DIM supplement.

And men as well, we have a lot of men that are on it too, to get out the excess [00:13:00] estrogen. From 

Pam: what I read, it was, you're right, for men and women. Yeah. And that's 

Jeff: the value of the testing that we do. And it's a hard conversation because people are so used to saying, well, what's my level? Right. What's my testosterone level?

What's my estrogen level? And it's like, no, we're looking for a pattern of you. Okay. This, this blood level of estrogen or testosterone is a moment in time. There's so many variables. Okay. Forget about your level. Let's talk about you as an individual and what you're doing with your estrogen. Are you getting rid of it properly?

And what can we do? To help you eliminate that excess estrogen as well. So it's sort of counterintuitive that we give you estrogen therapy but yet we're giving you something to help you get rid of estrogens in your body. But it's a very important balance about that. Because estrogen is going to do what it does in the body and do all those magical things.

But then it has to leave as well. It has to get removed 

Pam: out. Yeah. And I think that's a good point that you [00:14:00] made in regards to, and we've had this conversation with our numerous podcasts too, is that what is so great about what the Happy Hormone College does is that you guys are focused on the fact that this is not a solution that fits everybody.

This is your solution. One size fits just you. Right. And I think that's super important. And Jeff, you just emphasized that with what you just said. Is that every person is going to be different, so the needs are going to be different. Right. And I think that's, that's why when you are out making that decision of whether this is something you want to do and where you want to go, that's why you want to go to the Happy Mormon Cottage because they understand that.

Yeah. That we are all very different. 

Lyn: Right. And I think it's important to know what was happening. Inside your body with your hormone levels. Mm-hmm. . And don't, let's not forget about the progesterone piece too. I was just thinking too, if you've read on the news that Bindi Erwin, uh, in Australia just had recent really kind of severe surgery for endometriosis, they found like 37 lesions in our, in endometrial [00:15:00] lining.

And that's another thing that we use the dimm for, right. Jeff and progesterone therapy to methylate, to metabolize out all the excess or methylate out all the excess estrogen. So things like endometriosis can be controlled and helped. So we don't have to have surgery always. Right. Right. 

Jeff: It's a perfectly, um, what I would say, somebody that's hormonally healthy like Bindi, right?

We have a certain pattern of estrogen and progesterone throughout our cycles, and we get estrogen spikes mid cycle, right around ovulation. And so that's probably when we have higher estrogen levels. I mean, estrogen levels are super high.

And so that would stimulate a lot of endometrial type issues because now you make a lot of estrogen. You now have a lot of the 4 hydroxygastrone floating around and there you go, you have some major symptoms. And I 

Lyn: was thinking, I was thinking, I was thinking, gosh, I hope that they didn't just do the surgery.

Without treating the cause, [00:16:00] are they going to give her the dim? Are they going to? I don't even know if she had hysterectomy. It wasn't clear, but I just, we want to look at the root cause. We don't want to throw things at you and guess. We want to get a strategy based on great testing and then identify what you need for you at the root cause.

So I'm really like Bindi soon. I love her family. I thought, gosh, I hope they're getting at the, I'm thinking, I wish I could talk to her and get at the root cause. So she's going to be okay. Cause it's an ongoing problem. It's just not going to just be fixed by one, by one procedure. Right. So anyway, 

Pam: it's true too.

Cause she's also very 

Lyn: young. Yeah. She had a, she has a two, I think a 

Pam: one or two year old little girl. I was going to say, she is, she's definitely not someone who we would be looking at right now as someone who would even be. Having any kind of hormonal balance and those issues so that I 

Jeff: look at her and I think Lyn would too because we've done this for so long and we would identify her.

Just physically that she's the highest. Yeah, right, right. Short and she's curvy. She would have estrogen dominant. Yeah, we can 

Lyn: look at people. I mean, I'm, I'm [00:17:00] traditionally very small and very small breasted and I've always had low estrogen. And so I can look at women say, yep, yep, yep. P. C. O. S. Endometrial risk, estrogen dominance.

And it's pretty after 17 years. It's pretty true. Pretty true to case. So it's interesting. Just look. Yeah, 

Pam: Certainly gives you a different perspective on the way you look at 

Lyn: people. Two and a half men, what did Jake say? You know, fake real fake real. Estrogen is efficient.

Pam: That's funny. That's funny. So Jeff, just to kind of talk about a couple more supplements I wanted to ask you about. There's another supplement that they say that you should take with hormone therapy and it's called DHEA. Can you tell us what that is and what does it do? 

Jeff: So DHEA is, is a precursor hormone.

Okay. We use DHEA a lot. It's, it's a masculinizing hormone. It's a weak testosterone in a way. It's good for muscles. It's good for brain and stuff like that. But [00:18:00] DHEA is converted testosterone and estrogen and all those other things. I don't always use DHEA because your body's going to convert it to other things.

That's not the first thing on my list. I'd rather give you estrogen, testosterone or progesterone. Because those are sort of end hormones for me, whereas DHEA is more of a, I'm converting it to something and using it as well. But you will see the older you are, typically the lower your DHEA level is. You can look at a DHEA level and kind of get.

I guess the age of people sometimes for whatever reason. 

Pam: The other thing that we hear about all the time, because you, you mentioned it, vitamin D, vitamin C, those kind of things, vitamin K. Yeah. The other thing that we hear about all the time is vitamin B12. Is that something that We should be looking at and tell me a little bit about why that's so important.

Jeff: Yeah, the value of B12 is that it's a cofactor in a lot of biochemical [00:19:00] reactions is what it is. So, in other words, if you're, if you're trying to make your neurotransmitters, so your serotonin or your dopamine, Or your own melatonin for sleep. B12 is critical for that process of converting a raw material or an amino acid that you ingest into a usable neurotransmitter is one example of B12.

I think as long as you're taking B12 with, again, a multivitamin, you're okay. I think that sometimes B12 is hard to gauge because if you're looking at B12 levels in the blood, you can be confused. Because B12 doesn't do anything in the blood, it needs to get into the cell. And sometimes you look at that and say, well, B12 is high in the blood or in the serum, is it getting into the cell, versus you're too high or too low on B12.

So part of the Dutch kit that we do is we look at a functional test. And we look at one of these precursors to [00:20:00] B12 that works some, it's confusing, I'm sorry, but it gets into Is B12 there as a cofactor to convert to something we're looking at? It's in the urine. And so if we see like, oh, this isn't converting very well, then we're making the assessment.

Oh, that's B12 is not getting into the cell. And so we have a functional B12 deficiency. I think we won't use B12 by itself a lot, but we'll use it in combination with like a methylated B vitamin for the most part. 

Pam: Yeah. And again, it goes back to is that this is what you guys do is so important in getting to know the person and what's going on with their body.

We get inundated every day with commercials and all these things about take this supplement and take this vitamin and take this and that. But the truth of the matter is, and I think you just said it with the whole B 12, is because you see those commercials all [00:21:00] the time, is that maybe you don't need to take it.

That's why it's important that everyone go to the Happy Hormone Cottage to understand that they are going to test you and to find out what's going on with your body. And it's kind of like what we had, we've had this conversation is that your body does talk to you. It 

Lyn: does. And the problem with supplements is it isn't not taught in medical school either.

Just like hormone health isn't taught much in medical school, nor is nutrition. So I think it's something you have to own your own journey on if you will. And again, I can't stress enough about a strategy and. I don't want this podcast to be like a sales, a salesmanship for, or selling just happy hormone cards.

You can go other places, but be sure that wherever it is you go, if it's not to us or the integrative hormones, and it's someplace that really is well versed in supplements and they really know the tasks and the functionality of them and they have great diagnostic testing. And I don't know many places that actually, actually do that.

So just do your, do your 

Pam: research, right? And I agree. You really do have to do what's [00:22:00] best for your body. For your own body. Right. And in order to do that, I know that where you guys start is with testing. Yeah. And the education. Because that's really important. So Jeff, just to kind of close out our supplement conversation, are there any supplements that we shouldn't take?

Or that should be kind of avoided. 

Jeff: I think it's a matter of what are you spending your money on? Is it valuable? Is it targeted? Are you just kind of how many people have just a full cabinet full of supplements? And I'll tell you a quick story. All right, because we have friends in Florida. And they're older and we try to get down there about once a year to visit with them.

And every year we go down there, I go to their cabinet and we talk about supplements. What do they take? What are they not taking? And so my buddy down there opens up and he pulls out some gummy. Omega 3s for gummy fish oil, and he says, well, try these. What do you think of these? So I add one, and I said, well, this is really good.

He goes, yeah, [00:23:00] what do you think of this? I go, this is great if you want to take 40 a day. 

Pam: That's a lot of 

Jeff: gummy babies. So when you're talking supplements, you're talking about. Those right? What's the what's the what's an effective dose? And so some of them just get a bad rap because a lot of times they don't have a therapeutic dose.

And so we think we're doing the right thing, but we're probably not doing much at all. And that's classic with Omega 3s. Talking using Omega 3s or fish oils. I'm talking what I call weapons grade fish oil. And I don't know where I got that term. I heard from some doc somewhere. He goes, that makes sense.

You need a lot of omega 3 and you need a high quality omega 3. And most of the time you're not getting it, especially if you're getting a two for one somewhere or a 4. 99 clothes out special. You're not getting a good omega 3, right? And it's an oil. You have to treat an oil with respect. And so if you open up your bottle [00:24:00] of fish oil and it smells like fish, Guess what?

It's rancid. It's probably not doing you any good. Could it be harming you? Maybe. Because it's a rancid oil you're taking. But, is it doing you any good? Is it working on the inflammatory processes in the body? Absolutely not. You've got to get something that's good, and you've got to treat it with respect.

You've got to keep it in the fridge, or in the freezer. And I think 

Lyn: one final thought is, you know, I take a lot of stuff in today because it's, I'm immersed in it, and I travel will not ever go a day without taking my really great omega 3s and my vitamin D with K. I mean, if I have to leave everything, if I had to just pick two or three, I would always pick those as my top ones because omega 3s, they help inflammation, they help raise metabolism, they help push energy, energy into the brain, working through the mitochondria, I think, right, Jeff, and that's really, really important.

I mean, I, I will not leave it behind. I will stay home with my fish oil and travel without it, so it's really, really critical. 

Jeff: Right. And part of the problem is that our diet is so saturated with what we call Omega 6s, which are fine in themselves, but we eat [00:25:00] so much Omega 6s in relationship to Omega 3s.

And Omega 6s are more inflammatory, whereas Omega 3s are anti 

Pam: inflammatory. And 

Lyn: you can't eat enough fish to get Omega. You can't eat enough to make a difference, really. Right. 

Pam: And that makes, I mean, all of that makes 

Jeff: complete sense. Again, we, we do estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, sex hormones, but more importantly are the three major hormones, thyroid, cortisol, and insulin.

And so we need to address cortisol or stress hormone and we do that with supplements. Okay. We do adaptogen products. What I tell you about adaptogens, it's working on the brain. It's working on the hypothalamus or the brain center, what I call the control center of the brain. And what we want to do with adaptogens or cortisol support is we either want to turn that up or turn it down.

We want it up during the day because we're multitasking and doing a million things. And we want that control center in our brain, the hypothalamus functioning on all cylinders. But at night, guess what? [00:26:00] We don't want that thing functioning. We don't want to be multitasking when we're trying to go to sleep and be inundated.

So the value of adaptogens is that we can turn it up during the day, but then we can turn it down at night and start limiting the signaling coming into the hypothalamus. And so we, we improve cortisol functioning and we get people to sleep and then stay asleep. That's really important because if you're not sleeping well, if you have energy issues during the day, we could throw hormones at you until you're blue in the face, and we're not going to get that result that we want.

So the other thing with cortisol is that we want to make sure it's a stimulating product and a calming product. So we have adrenal boost and we have adrenal calm, and they're very specific to what we're trying to do. From thyroid, we talked a little bit about. The vitamin D and the importance of of vitamin D with thyroid function.

And then there's iron or [00:27:00] ferritin. It's very important. All right. And then there's selenium. That's very important for thyroid function. There's iodine. It's very important for thyroid function too. So using a supplement to improve thyroid function is very critical for us. And then finally insulin. And insulin resistance, because we all are dealing with insulin issues.

And so supplements around managing your insulin is the other thing that we look at. So a lot of alpha lipoic, a lot of berberine, a lot of bergamot, those kinds of things that will improve insulin resistance. I guess I wanted to throw those supplements out as part of our strategy, too, and the importance of good supplementation.

No, I'm 

Pam: glad that you did. One of the things that I can't emphasize enough is about finding the best fit that is for you, your individual solution. And that needs to be emphasized. And that's why I think this conversation is so important. One of the things that I do want to say about the Happy Hormone Cottage and to both of [00:28:00] you is that your approach is an integrative approach.

And that's important because It's an integrative approach to health and to well being and then you guys are experts and then you are also surrounded by knowledgeable experts as well. And I think that's important that we all understand how all of that works with our body and also developing a strategy that works for us individually.

Right. And I, and I think that's really important. So thank you both so much because I think this has been a really, a very interesting conversation. And I, I really. I appreciate both of you taking the time to talk about the importance of hormone therapy and the types of supplements that we should take, because as we said too, we are inundated every day about take this, take that, you need this, you need that.

And the truth of the matter is, is we really don't know half the time you look at it and you're, you're like, I'm confused. I don't know what to do. So go see Lyn and go see Jeff. Everyone, thank you again for [00:29:00] listening. It's super important to understand that the hormone replacement therapy is not only beneficial for hormonal imbalance, but that it also helps the prevention of chronic diseases.

And so it's equally important that we take supplements with them as well. Please remember the Happy Hormone Cottage is here to help you understand the facts, get past the fear and to help you live your best life. Please contact them at 513 444 6343 or go to their website, happyhormonecottage. com. You can also check out our other podcasts.

Wherever you get your podcasts, please be sure to go on there, download them, make sure that you like us, make sure that you follow us, and remember that to make the rest of your life the best of your life. Thanks everyone for listening.